Official Luthiers Forum!

I have no problem with competition on this forum. I feel that building comes first and selling comes second. I started Luthier Suppliers as a way to make jigs to help other builders. My first priority is building and helping others. If I can make a small profit that is great. The competition helps each other give customers better prices and products. As for the Sale posts from our suppliers, I see nothing wrong with it, and there have been changes behind the scenes to help control this in the future. Lance can explain later. But I agree with Kelby, I love to see all of the nice wood and jigs that are offered from our suppliers. I think we all benefit from this.
Tracy

[QUOTE=E.Coleman]We support MIMF and other forums that approach us, and we sure don't ask them not to mention the competition.[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE=rlabbe]Look everybody, StewMac stated they would pull their funding if Deb continued to allow commercial messages from the posters. That would have killed MIMF.[/QUOTE]

Someone's nose just grew a bit longer...   

Wow, spend a few hours away from this site, and you miss all the fun!

As Dennis Leahy mentioned, the reason why the luthierforum (no "S") was begun was because Mario DaCosta quickly ran afoul of Deb's tight restrictions. I have been an occasional poster there, and even when trying to be concientious, I've run afoul of her restrictions more than once. It's almost impossible not to. Within a free exchange of ideas, these [forbidden] topics come up often. And one doesn't realize that free speech isn't really free there until after the infraction has occurred.

I believe that it is not entirely the result of Deb's hope/desire/demand that she make a living off her site, which has led to her censorship of commercial comments except by and for her sponsors, but I also think that her views date back to the early days of the web, in which the common thought was that the web should not be commercialized. This was back during the early days, when things were mostly government and academe. And there are still a few starlwarts who cling to this hopelessly outmoded view. So, Deb is, in my view, internally conflicted. She needs to do some serious soul-searching, but I don't hold out hope. I think the acceptance of capitalism is beyond her kin. She is not willing to take the risk that is a fundamental property of capitalism and being in business for oneself, and hence this weird distortion exists.

To me, MIMF has no value. Even the archives, which I used to research often, and which many people regard so highly. I have found that the folks who gave the best answers I was looking for were very approachable through other sources, so what did I need her archives for?

And what's this hooey about all the traffic her site gets? Can anybody document this traffic please? I personally haven't seen it. I seriously doubt Deb's site gets any more traffic than OLF or Luthierforum or 13th fret. Which I'm sure just petrifies her.

Best,

Michael

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live

Good grief. Like others have said, you log off for a few hours and miss all the excitement. Here is my take, whoever runs the site can do what they want. If the majority of those at the MIMF didn't like the rules, they could go elsewhere. Last I checked this is america and people have the free will to do as they please. Is this topic even worth every getting their pantalones in a bunch? Lance allows threads for sponsors who have sales just as he allows those with prayer requests to post and seek encouragement. Do either of those topics belong on a Luthiers site? Lance thinks so and apparently we all agree...we are here aren't we?    

Interesting comment about demanding free advertising and how you would be laughed at. Most media sources are more than happy to run with informative stories etc. even when they plug a product or service. In fact, I have had no problem getting free press (newspaper, TV and radio) for my business. I don't feel entitle to it. I know the only reason for the exposure is that the media outlet believes it would be good busiess for them. In fact, you would be amazed how high a percentage of the stories on the local news are a result of public relations efforts. I can't fault anyone for not wanting to allow someone the exposure. I can't fault anyone for deciding they don't want to allow these kind of messages, I just don't think it's a good business decision. Network TV is "free" too. But, how valuable would it be if the owners ignored the feelings of its viewers. I really don't care what the MIMF does. I don't go there anymore anyway. I think the purpose of this conversation is to let the powers that be at OLF know how its users feel.

Joe Volin

I was dumbfounded to learn about some of the antics of the MIMF. Shutting it down because of politics when it is she who won't allow political discussion! Please, that is the ultimate in hypocrisy and it is typical of a certian mindset. Sad...

I stopped going there quite a while ago because of the attitudes of some of the members. It came across only too clearly in their posts. I personally think that absolutes where a forum is concerned tend to cause everyone harm in the long run. Particularly when the "absolute" is tinged, as I said before, with hypocrisy.

Paul Harvey has said on more than one occassion, "Self-government cannot work without self-discipline" Whether or not he originated the saying, I do not know. What I do know is that the saying applies here too and from what I have seen, everyone is respectful enough to follow that axiom. That is what makes a forum work. Not an autocratic individual who thinks they "own" something.

This forum thrives and is growing because it engenders diversity of opinion combined with respect. Something sadly lacking elsewhere.

That Deb Suran's antics have resulted in such an outpouring of response in such a short time is mute testimony to the controversy raised by the MIMF when Ms. Suran claims just the opposite. I think that speaks for itself.

Regards, Steve Brown

Too much Drama.jfrench38581.9135648148

_________________
Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

John
As a newbie, I am glad to have you on this forum. You have helped me many
times, and soon I will reward you with a purchase of a side bender. Your
prices are great, but your advice and help is priceless.

Thanks
The Newbie
Andy

_________________
Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

    What got to me the most was the MIMF had a reference to a question about a 12 string guitar kit.
A post was made to call CF Martin's guitarmakers connection.
    I just added Blues Creek Guitars and Deb got very upset. Sorry I don't understand how it is okay for one and not the other. All the emails I got and support is most encouraging. Deb does a good service but I don't think she is fair.
    I love to help promote the luthier hobby and try and teach and share information. That is why this forum is growing . Lance runs a very informative site and I am proud to be a part of it.
    I have no ill will to deb or those that disagree with me. This is free speach at its best.
    Those of you that do know me personaly know I am gererous with my time and information. I do agree this is a free economy and that is what makes this place great. You can learn what is out there and the prices. I do offer the OLF'er specials for this reason. They are here and all the business can profit from the people here.
      We all win. I as a business can make a sale , you as a consumer can save a few dollars. We all win.
   Thanks agian. I didn't expect anything like this. We all have our own feelings about OLF and MIMF.
Again thanks for all the support and may we all have fun.
God Bless
John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars

thanks for the offer. I would be proud if you would. I am in the process of redoing my site and please when you see the changes get in touch I will he happy to link you up to
john hall
Blues Creek Guitars

John, here's a point on Deb's fairness issue. As I understand MIMF rules, you can discuss (but not post a link to) SOMEONE ELSE'S products, but you can't discuss YOUR OWN products at all. I presume that's why she jumped all over you and not all over the guy that posted the Martin reference. So, I think Deb was enforcing her rules consistently. We can take issue with whether the rules are wise (and I certainly do), but to her credit I don't think she was enforcing her rules arbitrarily.

Personally, if I start a thread about where to buy a good 12-string kit, I would like to hear about all the good ones out there. It doesn't matter to me whether thoe pointers come from vendors or disinterested observers, provided people offering opinions are forthright about any interest they may have. But I guess Deb sees it differently.

there have been some distortions and misinformation put forth here which needs to be corrected.

commercial urls can be posted on mimf so long as they are not in the luthiery industry. the names of luthier specific commercial enterprises and their products can be be posted but not urls or prices. i have directed other posters to allied, lmi, stew-mac, international violin, grizzley, and etc, etc, etc. with no problems. if i were to try to sell one of my guitars in a general post or tout my repair activities and prices i think i would quite rightly be the subject of her wrath for i clearly would be violating the "policy"

so the exception is commercial posters who are not allowed to promote their own products or services in general posts. they are free to buy advertising. there is nothing intrinsically unfair about such a rule if it is administered in a uniform manner, and as far as i have seen it is.

i have run afoul of deb's policy on more than one occacion, and when she said my infringement was "in the policy" it was, but one does have to read carefully.

if, as has been pointed out, john had a prior warning he has no cause for complaint and should take his medicine with a bit of grace.

and i, for one, heartily endorse deb's policy regarding bringing politics and religion onto a site such as this. and as to the cowardly referal to a jew who lost family in the holocaust as a nazi, that is the epitome of ignorance and bad taste. i feel that the shameful individuals who did so should have the courage to apologise for their crass, boorish, ill-mannered, oafish, ignorant, hateful behavior. failing that, i won't be seen here any longer.

crazymanmichael38582.793125

[QUOTE=crazymanmichael] ...as to the cowardly referal to a jew who lost family in the holocaust as a nazi, that is the epitome of ignorance and bad taste. i feel that the ahameful individuals who did so should have the courage to apologise for their crass, boorish, ill-mannered, oafish, ignorant, hateful behavior. failing that, i won't be seen here any longer.
[/QUOTE]

Someone must have deleted that post you're referring to, or edited it, or maybe you misread something. If you're referring to the "witch hunt" thread, this was the Hitler reference:
[QUOTE]Just bacause someone has an opinion on the way things should be done doesn`t give them any right to grab up a rifle and go out for someone who thinks differently. Look at Hitler, for example. He had a vision of a perfect world. Believe it or not, there were many people who agreed with him! The unification of those people caused tremendous strife world-wide, and there are still terrible memories and unrepairable damages to this day![/QUOTE]
And, I'll grant you, using a Hitler reference for anything other than describing nazi-ism or Jewish genocide is almost always an exponentially inappropriate hyperbole. But, (if this is the quote you're referring to) the man didn't say anything close to what you said, not even between the lines.

It's not just you, crazymanmichael, but there's an inordinate amount of passion being spent on this non-issue. John is out of the MIMF. I'm sure he was pissed at first, but I'm betting he's going to get 8 hours of restful sleep tonight, and have a cup of coffee in the morning.

Dennis

_________________
Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

[QUOTE=DennisLeahy] And, I'll grant you, using a Hitler reference for anything other than describing nazi-ism or Jewish genocide is almost always an exponentially inappropriate hyperbole. But, (if this is the quote you're referring to) the man didn't say anything close to what you said, not even between the lines. [/quote]

Well, guess that thread got Godwinized, then...

Hey at least I'm part of the been kicked out club. I can't even remember what it was for, I think I directly quested sysop's standing on a few things.

But what really irritates me is how Deb views information as a commodity she can keep and sell on. I remember how much she hated Frank Ford's frets.com which was apparently banished for being 'commercial'. So Frank just went over to the Ac forum.

In fairness, I think that she has every right to run her forum the way she wants and also has every right to slag folks off on the site or via private mails but surely that right also applies to us. She doesn't like the war, she puts a banner up, John doesn't like the way he was treated, he posts somewhere else.

I don't mention that forum anymore to folks who are looking for info, I recommend OLF and AC forum- it's interenet consumerism, if you don't like something, don't patronise it. She does what she does, we do what we do.

I've come a long way from when I just started out; largely thanks to folks who were generous with their time and experience; mostly on the fret and AC actually. I'll always try to give back to the community what I got.

Warmest Regards,
Terence.
www.goodacoustics.com

Please read my last post on the "witch hunt" topic.
mmm, mmm, this humble pie is delicious! May I have another piece?

_________________
Give me 50 cents worth of regular.
Check my oil too, if you don`t mind,,,

My question is,
who the heck would want to buy a 12 string kit anyway?

just kidding guys.....

Matt

My last post on this topic, really.

Pakhan: Frets is routinely referred to (In the 'look for Frank Ford's site' way, as mandated by the rules), but the URL aint. I don't see the hate there.

Joe V: I can't say that the MIMF Library is outdated (although some of the info in it is, as in any archive), or that even a fraction of the information in there is available, in as concise a form, anywhere else on the net. Certainly not organized as well.

Honestly, I've got better things to do that read and re-read threads that contain far too much 'look how crap forum X is and look how great we are' or similar. I don't log on to either to read this kind of stuff, because frankly, it's of little real interest. The umpteenth 'well isn't that just ludicrous!' post just serves to irritate me, never to think less of what the MIMF has meant to me and many, many others over the years. Deb's ship is run tightly, but the rules are clearly spelled out, and easy to follow even if you don't agree with them, and frankly, don't really limit much of anything short of self-promotion and direct links to companies in direct competition with advertisers. Names, googling terms, etc. are all fair game. The information collected in the library is unparalleled on the net, nicely edited, kept up, and classified. Lots of work there. All manner of instruments, repair issues are discussed, and it's a very, very big website. There's less for the professional there than some might like, but I'm likely as not to hit the Acoustic Guitar forum in addition to the other two for more complex questions. Different people move in each community, many move in several, and the more places you ask, the more answers you may get.

For a beginner, or simply for reference, the MIMF is dang hard to beat, but only if you're wise enough to read all you can before asking questions. Sometimes you need help, but demonstrating you've spent the time doing what research/reading you could can never be a bad thing. Ask questions afterwards, if only to find out if people are still doing things the same way!

The OLF's different, and that's good. It can't, for me, *replace* the MIMF, because of its different population, size, setup. I *want* my wider selection of forums and info sources, dammit! The OLF's sponsors do add a 'marketplace' dimension once in a while, but not at all in a bad way. I count BobC as a friend, and I've gotten fantastic tonewood from him, Ed Dicks and Steve Roberson, none of whom I would've found were it not for this forum. This being said, I don't expect that kind of thing to be a right or requirement from any other forum I visit; ultimately, I visit for the discussion of instrument building, for talking to like-minded people spread across the globe. I live by the rules, and all goes well.

Re: hypocrisy in terms of politics/religion, it's her site. If she wants to make a political statement about something as massive as the Iraq war, fine. Not using it because of a beef with her beliefs or perceived hypocrisy (Ad Hominem fallacies, anyone?) seems churlish at best. She is, far as I can tell, relatively even-handed (if strict) in how she applies the rules *to the forum content*, and that's the real issue.

That's it. I'm done. Can we talk about guitars now please?Mattia Valente38582.4304513889

Whew! Leave you guys alone for one day and see what happens. I used to look at deb's site occasionally but stopped after I replied to a question about where to purchase radius sanding bowls. This happened at the time that tracy had just started his site. Since I had purchased bowls before the site went up, I suggested that the person look at tracy's cite--i gave name without address. (I admit I did have a motive of getting Tracy more business but info. was valuable because his bowls were the best available at a great price. My post, in a very short time disappeared. I e-mailed her and received no response. So that's why you are all stuck with me.

Does her forum have access to private messaging? Of course this is a way to circumvent her censorship.

[QUOTE=bob J] Whew! Leave you guys alone for one day and see what happens. I used to look at deb's site occasionally but stopped after I replied to a question about where to purchase radius sanding bowls. This happened at the time that tracy had just started his site. Since I had purchased bowls before the site went up, I suggested that the person look at tracy's cite--i gave name without address. (I admit I did have a motive of getting Tracy more business but info. was valuable because his bowls were the best available at a great price. My post, in a very short time disappeared. I e-mailed her and received no response. So that's why you are all stuck with me.

Does her forum have access to private messaging? Of course this is a way to circumvent her censorship.[/QUOTE]

Ok, ACTUAL last post

If you just mentioned the company name/googling terms and not the link or URL, and it was clear it wans't your site you were promoting, it should've stayed up. It's unlike Deb to not reply to email, I gotta say. Could've simply posted it again making that clear, and my bet? Would've stayed up, like every single recommendation for any site/vendor (including all of this forum's sponsors that I've had the pleasure of doing business with) I've ever posted.

And no, no private messaging beyond email on the MIMF that I'm aware of. Mattia Valente38582.4441898148

[QUOTE=Mattia Valente] [QUOTE=DennisLeahy] And, I'll grant you, using a Hitler reference for anything other than describing nazi-ism or Jewish genocide is almost always an exponentially inappropriate hyperbole. But, (if this is the quote you're referring to) the man didn't say anything close to what you said, not even between the lines. [/quote]

Well, guess that thread got Godwinized, then...[/QUOTE]

Hey, one good thing came out of this... I discovered Godwin and his remarkably accurate law.

Steve

Excuse my density, but might I ask, what is the "AC" forum?

Best,

Michael

_________________
Live to Play, Play to Live

Thanks John, I will get it linked up tonight.

[QUOTE=Brock Poling] Mark, the culture of the MIMF (as Deb defines it) is that you cannot actively promote your business, list prices, post links to commercial sites, post pics of anything you didn't take, talk religion or politics (ok... those two are smart ideas), etc.

When John posted the simple fact that he offered these kits that caused an infraction of her rules. I agree it was in the SPIRIT of helping someone, not blatent promotion. But at the MIMF that doesn't matter.

It is a black or white world over there.

John clearly is one of the good guys. LMI and StewMac are mentioned throughout the MIMF, but I challenge you to find a link (or even a text url) other than the paid advertising banners.
[/QUOTE]

Brock - Right you are about finding a link, etc. I rarely put any input on the MIMF site. I tried to send a response to a question someone had on bindings. I inserted a link to the stew mac site and I saw that was removed from my response! I really did not think they would take that out because it was for stew mac! They advise the original person who started the thread to click on the banner and go to the bindings section of the web site for info. I do like the MIMF. But.....I felt kind of like a kid that did something wrong!Oh well I believe they must get credit for how many hits come from the stew mac link on their site? They do have alot of good info on MIMF, just be ready for some more rules than here!I like this site for many reasons, but there is one biggie for me. I can get links from the people who are members of this forum who sell products, and converse through the forum with the very same people! I really like that personal involvement this site gives to people. You don't find that at MIMF.
MarkMark Laura38582.9370601852